Ep 2: Transforming Loneliness through Social Prescriptions and Genuine Connection with Author Julia Hotz
“Loneliness is not the act of being alone - it's the act of feeling alone and wishing your connections were more fulfilling than they are.” - Julia Hotz
About this Episode
In this episode of Seeking the Overlap, host Baily Hancock chats with Julia Hotz, author of The Connection Cure, about the transformative power of connection in healing loneliness. Julia delves into the idea of "social prescriptions" — creative, community-based activities prescribed as a remedy for loneliness — and how engaging in movement, nature, art, and service can help individuals reconnect with themselves and others. From shared experiences to small acts of kindness, Julia highlights the importance of belonging and why it's more than just proximity to others; it’s about finding meaningful ways to participate and show up in our communities.
topics covered
The Origins and Impact of Social Prescription
Challenges and Solutions in Building Connections
Opting Out of Small Talk and the Importance of Deep Conversations
Examples of Social Prescriptions
The Validity and Impact of Virtual Communities
Resources mentioned
Learn more about Social Prescriptions at socialprescribing.co
Find a Skip the Small Talk session in your city
Blue Sky Black Sheep Writing Group: blueskyblacksheep.com
About the Guest
Julia Hotz is a solutions-focused journalist based in New York. Her stories have appeared in The New York Times, WIRED, Scientific American, The Boston Globe, Time, and more. She helps other journalists report on the big new ideas changing the world at the Solutions Journalism Network. THE CONNECTION CURE is her first book.
Timestamps
00:00 Podcast Introduction
01:11 Welcome
01:38 Three Truths, No Lies Game
03:41 Exploring Social Prescription
04:08 Origins and Impact of Social Prescription
07:40 Challenges and Solutions in Building Connections
12:16 The Importance of Deep Conversations
17:17 Examples of Social Prescriptions
28:00 Virtual Connections and Final Thoughts
Episode Transcript
Welcome and Introduction
Baily Hancock: Hello, Julia. Welcome to Seeking the Overlap.
Jules Hotz (she/her): Thank you so much, Baily. So glad to be here.
Baily Hancock: Super excited to talk to you, your book, the connection cure. I've read a lot of books on relationship building, friendships, connection, yours takes such an interesting approach to it. And we're going to dive all into it in a second. But before we get into you as the connection researcher, I would like to know who you are a little bit better as a human being.
So we are going to kick off our segment, three truths, no lies. Are you ready?
Three Truths, No Lies Segment
Baily Hancock: Here we go. All right. First question. What is your listening preference? Audiobooks, podcasts, or music?
Jules Hotz (she/her): Ooh, good question, let's say podcasts. I love them. I love being on them. I love listening to them. I love having them on in my homes all time. So podcasts.
Baily Hancock: Do you have a go to podcast that you listen the day the episode airs?
Jules Hotz (she/her): Hidden Brain has always been one of my favorite podcasts.
Baily Hancock: Amazing. When playing truth or dare, what's your go to choice?
Jules Hotz (she/her): Dare. I think dare. I just spill my truths with not even needing to be asked to, but.
Baily Hancock: Final question. What is something that you have changed your mind about?
Jules Hotz (she/her): I used to be really against online shopping. I used to get on my little soapbox and say, we just say the local businesses and we don't need all this stuff anyway. And then it turned out that I was writing this book.
There were a lot of like weird objects that I could only get through online shopping, such as these like little pill bottles that I, give out to different ambassadors to embody social prescribing. I, like never had an Amazon, never had like home deliveries.
And now when friends come over and they see these Amazon boxes, they're like look who's drank the Kool Aid.
Baily Hancock: Look, I'm a mom of a three and a five year old and I don't know how parents existed prior to Amazon Prime. I don't like it. I hate that I'm participating in this, but you need so many random things immediately and you can't always leave your house.
Jules Hotz (she/her): You do what you gotta do.
Baily Hancock: We're just all trying to make it another day around here. Okay. We'll be good humans where we can.
Thank you for playing that game. I feel like I know you a little bit better now.
Exploring Social Prescription
Baily Hancock: Now I want to know all of your expertise around connection. Your book centers around the idea of social prescription, so referrals to community activities and resources. Where did this come from? How did you come to even know about this? Cause obviously it's not coming from America. There's no way, or is it,
Jules Hotz (she/her): Sure.
Baily Hancock: that's in niche communities. Like where did this come from?
How did you come to it? And tell us a little bit about what it actually means.
Origins and Impact of Social Prescription
Jules Hotz (she/her): First of all, I'll say there is good, hopeful news. This act of social prescribing is and has started to come to the U. S. And there's a great group called Social Prescribing USA that gets all into that, but you're right that the origin story did not start in the U. S. In fact, it started in the U. K. Back in, 2018 really is when there was a lot of momentum around it. That was the same year the nation established a minister of loneliness. They, unlike the US and the UK, there's a national health system. And loneliness was and is proving to be a really big public health issue.
It turns out that when people are lonely, they tend to have all sorts of other health issues, which then put a lot of pressure on this system that's already super pressurized, and so the impetus to start social prescribing, which people think means like, socialization, that's what it's about.
The truth is, that could be a part of it. But social prescribing is really about addressing anything that addresses our social determinants of health. That could be, do we have safe housing? Do we have enough food? Who do we have a job? All of these sort of factors in our environment affect our health.
So social prescriptions aim to do that too. Now a big one though, I will say, is that question of the quality of your connections. Which we know, I'm sure you must be an expert in this, that loneliness is not the act of being alone. It's the act of feeling alone and wishing your connections were more fulfilling than they are.
And it turns out when we don't have that, when there's a gap between what our connections are and what we would like them to be, our health really takes a toll. I found out about this when I was just doing some general reporting on. The epidemic of loneliness, the minister of loneliness became really interested in COVID when it became clear that more and more of us were probably struggling with loneliness and opportunities for meaningful connection. And that is when I started to really hear more and more about this thing called social prescribing.
Baily Hancock: Were you in the connection space prior to this project?
Jules Hotz (she/her): Before I became a journalist, I was in graduate school, it was 2018. I really needed a topic. I was studying sociology and it just so happened that the day that I needed to submit a dissertation topic was when I found out that England or the UK had just established a minister of loneliness.
So I thought, you That sounds like a really interesting thing to investigate. What even is loneliness? What solutions have been tried in the past? And more importantly what do people who feel lonely want this minister to do? And so I asked them and That led to some very interesting responses, including this idea that there should be more opportunities for people to connect with each other that aren't just going to a bar and drinking, that aren't romantic connections, dating.
I remember this guy, Alex said to me we're here because we don't know how to make friends anymore. We all want to make friends and we don't know how or where to do that.
Challenges and Solutions in Building Connections
Baily Hancock: What were some of those common things you were hearing as you were interviewing people? Because the friendship one is one I hear constantly too, as an adult, how does one make friends? And then how does one have friendship with people and have those social interactions that doesn't all revolve around going to a bar and drinking or always going out to dinner. We have so few opportunities to have that third place environment which it's the idea that our first and second place are home and work and we lack a lot of those other places where people know to expect you.
What's the cheers of your world where everybody knows your name? it's no longer, social clubs or bowling leagues- we lack a lot of those physical locations to nurture those friendships. What were you hearing was at the core of people's loneliness?
Jules Hotz (she/her): I'm so glad you explained third places because a lot of it was that a lot of it was a longing for third places. I remember this one woman told me that she would go to the bus stop, like even if she didn't have somewhere to go,
Baily Hancock: Interesting.
Jules Hotz (she/her): to meet people. Cause that is one place where you can be sure that there are always going to be people there.
And the other thing I'll say about this research is. It was the first time I was really exposed to the fact that loneliness can affect everyone. And I feel like people who are in the connection world know and accept this, but for someone who hasn't studied it before, like I hadn't, we rely on these like cultural pictures of loneliness, somebody who's older and isolated and loses all their connection because of their physical circumstance.
That's definitely true. There are definitely people who are older and isolated and lonely. But a lot of the people I talked to who came to this focus group were younger in their 20s and 30s and 40s. They were able bodied. They were able to move and go to places to meet people. But, like Alex said, they just didn't know where to go or how to do that.
We also asked where have you found connections? What does work? What should the minister invest in? And a lot of them said it was when they volunteered or when they went to an informal club. I remember some people were talking about potluck dinners and cooking classes.
And sure enough, here we are six years later. Where, that is the core of social prescribing, and the core of everything I've understood about the research on connection, which is that there is this degree of bonding around common interests. And, it's not enough to be like, okay, all you people go in this room and connect and be friends.
Baily Hancock: Right.
Jules Hotz (she/her): to actually have this activity through which you're, as they say, not bonding face to face, but shoulder to shoulder.
Baily Hancock: Oh, I love that. One of the common complaints I hear from people that are actively trying to nurture existing relationships. So maybe they've met somebody at a conference or they've been introduced to somebody. They move to a new city and a friend of a friend connects with them. Then the ball drops a lot of the time with that relationship because they're new Putting all of the responsibility on their shoulders or the other person's shoulders to make opportunities happen. And I think that's the tricky part, because if you don't have a baked in way to connect with somebody or a reason to connect with them or a common theme around which to connect, it can feel really complicated and unnecessarily. Full of friction,
Jules Hotz (she/her): Yeah,
Baily Hancock: this idea of shoulder to shoulder is so beautiful because it's true. It's like when you share a common goal or a common interest and you have an activity or a reason to come together around that shared interest or shared goal, that gives you something to talk about. It gives you something to do together and it gives you built in opportunities to nurture that brand new relationship.
Jules Hotz (she/her): absolutely. It is so true that has to be present, not just when it's new relationships, but when it's existing relationships. Something else that I think is key, which I talk a little bit about in the book.
It's key to have common interests. And I think it's key to have whatever you're talking about be like substantive and meaningful. And that looks different for everybody, but what I mean there is not small talk. Everybody hates small talk.
The Importance of Deep Conversations
Jules Hotz (she/her): Can we all opt out of Smalltalk?
There's a great group that I talk about called Skip the Smalltalk, a lot of the research on Connection supports this idea that, yeah, everybody hates Smalltalk, and it actually drains us.
I think there's this myth that there are extroverts and introverts and for Some reason extroverts, can deal with small talk like no. I'm an extrovert. And I also hate small talk, but I think what is true is that when there is opportunity for the opposite of small talk for deeper connection that is when both introverts and extroverts can thrive.
Skip the small talk is this group started by this amazing researcher, Ashley Kirschner in Boston, who basically that small talk sucks. We all want to open up. how is it that we all go around in the world and have these really interesting inner lives and past experiences and we never get to talk about them?
So like even what you did today with your three truths, like those are things I hadn't really thought about. And it's nice to be able to reflect on that and share with somebody. And the research says that tapping into what makes us who we are, expanding our sense of self is something that we evolve to do.
And when we move beyond small talk, like this group, skip the small talk encourages us to do, we feel better. We feel more connected. We feel a sense of belonging. Even if we don't make lifelong friends or life partners, we walk away feeling more connected.
Baily Hancock: I think it goes back to people's deep desire to feel seen and just received for who they are. And that's the whole point of this podcast, seeking the overlap implies that you know what's in your circle on the Venn diagram between you and another person. The overlap is those overlapping circles on the Venn diagram. Inner work and self reflection, are crucial to being able to deeply connect with others. To have slightly deeper conversations, you have to know what it is that you're able and willing and even aware of about yourself to share. You can't really be vulnerable if you haven't identified what's within you that you're aware of and open to talking about with other people.
Jules Hotz (she/her): Yeah.
Baily Hancock: Small talk and depth of conversation doesn't have to mean sharing your deepest, darkest secrets. At all, I think the key
Jules Hotz (she/her): Yeah.
Baily Hancock: Note or a value about yourself that isn't just inconsequential, dumb surface level stuff, right? The weather does not have any bearing on how much I'm going to like you as a person. If instead you're like, Oh, it's raining. I, I moved to LA to get away from the rain because I'm from Florida and all it did was rain all summer.
That's different. That's. The
Jules Hotz (she/her): Totally.
Baily Hancock: but you gave more information there and you let somebody, you sprinkled in some interesting facts about you, given them some kind of something to grasp onto. So I think small talk is inherently a way to protect ourselves. People are perhaps a bit scared and lazy and they haven't done that self reflection to open themselves up to that.
Jules Hotz (she/her): Yes. That's another good point. Networking. Even the word makes my butt tingle a little bit because Yeah, you're just thinking about being in this like performative mode where you're always on and you know what it is, you're so in your head in thinking about what you have to say, what is this?
It's very transactional. What is this person going to give me? How do I want to present myself to them? And people just smell that. I think it's just as we're hardwired to seek deep and authentic connection. Again, totally agree. Not the same as us. Disclosing your deep dark secrets. We are on the other side of that, like really repulsed by inauthentic connection.
So yeah, I think that what some, like these deep digging, skip the small talk prompts, or even like the one you asked earlier, what's something you've changed your mind about? That is a great question because I think it invites the person to Come at that with any sort of level of comfort with sharing or not, but it, you're going to get a different answer for every person you talk to.
It's disarms them from being performative or being in this mode. And there's basically no way to make up an answer to that question. You really have to think about it. And
Baily Hancock: And even
Jules Hotz (she/her): I think that
Baily Hancock: answer of sorts, right?
Jules Hotz (she/her): Yeah. Yeah.
Baily Hancock: tells you something.
Jules Hotz (she/her): Exactly. It tells you something about me or about the person in a way that like talking about generic things like the weather or, KPIs for the company just doesn't.
Yeah,
Baily Hancock: Have they ever lit anybody up?
Examples of Social Prescriptions
Baily Hancock: What are some examples of these social prescriptions? So what are these community activities that people are being prescribed and what are the results that they're seeing? What are the problems being solved through these?
Jules Hotz (she/her): You actually just anticipated the answer. I don't know if you realize this when you said KPIs don't really light you up. That is a gateway to a social prescription. Asking the question of What lights you up when you talk about it? If you had two more hours in your day, what would you spend it doing?
What helps you get out of the bed in the morning? And when did you last experience awe? And what gives you flow, this sort of feeling of you could be doing it for, an unlimited amount of time and you wouldn't lose focus. All of those questions get to the perennial question of social prescribing, which is what matters to you?
So the whole tagline of this practice is usually when we go to the doctor or the therapist, they ask us some version of What's the matter with you? Tell me about your symptoms. Tell me about your trauma. Tell me about your childhood suffering, right? This is about saying, okay, yes, that's important to an extent.
And it's also important to ask the opposite of that question. What gives you joy? What gives you flow? What lights you up? And it turns out that when people have the opportunity to think about that, what matters to them, they often are tapping into this deeper version of themselves, their inner child.
And they're remembering, wow I used to love riding my bike when I was a kid, but I haven't done that in years because I don't have a bike and I don't have anybody to bike with. Or I was really fascinated by the sea, but I'm, I'm scared to do that alone. Or, whenever life would get really hard I would cope by reading a fantasy book or, drawing out my feelings. Those examples I talked about are real ones from my book, The Connection Cure, in which people were prescribed a cycling group, a sea swimming group, an art class a group called Culture Vitamins, which exposes people to museums and concerts and library read alouds to help treat their symptoms of In this case, it was depression and anxiety and type 2 diabetes and even PTSD.
And what's on the other side of that, it, of course, it's not making the underlying stressor go away. A lot of times, What precedes depression or anxiety or, it's in the name post traumatic stress disorder is some traumatic or upsetting events. It's not making that go away. And of course we still need other ways to cope maybe with the effects of that event, but it is helping us maybe tone down the severity of the symptoms.
So in the case of Amanda, for example, who was prescribed a sea swimming group. Who had been dealing with extremely severe depression after all of these terrible things happen to her, her husband's having an affair, they get divorced, her mom dies, she loses her job. It's COVID and she has to move to a brand new place where she doesn't know anybody like so many terrible things at once.
And so of course she is depressed and has put on the highest dose of antidepressants. And then she finds out about this sea swimming. And at first, she's really scared. She doesn't want to do it. But she gets encouraged, and she gets a prescription to do it. And through these eight weeks, she says to me at the end of it, Depression is terrible.
It feels like you're enclosed in a helmet. Your mind is just racing through these deep, dark thoughts all the time. And it's so lonely. You're so alone. And then, when you come out to the sea, and you meet all these other people who are literally and metaphorically stripped bare and are scared and are doing something hard together.
You have so many wonderful things happening. Number one, like the physiological shock of the cold water when you're swimming, the beauty of the sea, the physical activity of swimming, and probably most importantly, the fact that you're doing this with other people. And Amanda's story, she said to me at the end of it felt like my life became bright again.
And now when I, wake up in the morning and I think about why do I want to keep going? I think about this group and what it's brought me and meeting up with them on the weekend. She says, that is my lifeline. So that's just one example, but the book is filled with dozens of stories like that, of the way that social prescriptions can really help us flip the script, not only on our diagnoses, but on our sense of self and what's possible.
Baily Hancock: main things are happening there. A, you're returning to something that inherently brings you joy or feeds your curiosity or your creativity, which in and of itself is a worthwhile pursuit. And B, you're doing it alongside people that share that in common with you. And I
Jules Hotz (she/her): Yes.
Baily Hancock: That kind of one two punch is super, super impactful versus doing that thing alone. Or only just meeting up with people for the sake of meeting up with them. Like it gives your friendships that you're building their purpose and it gives you purpose and meaning to the activity in and of itself.
Jules Hotz (she/her): Yes, beautifully said. And I would even say there's a third thing there too, which is that these activities, which I talk a lot about this in my book activities, they're typically involving movement, nature, art, service and belonging, things that we evolved to do as human beings.
And not only is it something that uniquely matters to us, not only are we doing it with other people, but it's really good for us. It's so much better than sitting alone at home ruminating on our thoughts, which a lot of our systems reinforce. And what's nice too, is that, you may have that activity in common with the other person.
Like I'm thinking, for example, about the cycling group. All of these people were like over 50, prescribed a spot in this course, which was really about learning how to ride a bike again. But what one woman said to me is, Most of us, we go through our life, maybe our job introduces us to people we might not have otherwise met, but once we leave school, we rarely have the opportunity to do that.
Baily Hancock: Yep.
Jules Hotz (she/her): And so she says, this has been such an amazing exposure to people I wouldn't have otherwise met. She says Pete's a plumber, Frank's a truck driver, I worked in the non profit sector, Chris is an athlete, like, All of these people who, again, if it wasn't for this course and their shared love of cycling, would not have met each other.
So that's another benefit.
Baily Hancock: I'm in a writing group and it's all virtual and it's primarily women from like 22 to 72 years old live across the country.
And there's almost always one of us that's in a different country at the time. And not only are we getting to be creative and we're writing, which is great for our mental health and for our creativity outlets, but we're literally getting to bear witness to the other writers stories. And, I've never met in person most of the people that are in this writing group, but I feel like I know them more intimately than I know most people that I would consider best friends because we've literally bared witness to the words coming from us.
And it's not always autobiographical. Like these pieces can be about other things, but you have such a massive window into the way that they think and the things that are really tender for them and the things that light them up. And you can map their own life trajectories through the things that come out in writing group.
And same for me, I feel so seen by this group. What's beautiful about our group in particular, shout out to blue sky, black sheep writing group. I will link it in the show notes. There's no critiquing. There's no, I wish you would have gone more deeply into this character.
Jules Hotz (she/her): I love that.
Baily Hancock: about these social prescriptions, I was like, Oh God, I don't think I have anything in my life that fits that bill.
And it's so not true. That's such a crucial one. If I can make it to all four sessions, when they do these groups, I sign up without question. That's a
Jules Hotz (she/her): Oh,
Baily Hancock: for me because it is that it has been that impactful in my own relationships and my own, I don't know, mental health and happiness.
Jules Hotz (she/her): Oh, that's so beautiful. That's so great. I love everything about the structure of that group, the regularity of it, like I think.
Baily Hancock: There's
Jules Hotz (she/her): It's consistency and also just like this invitation. I think when, again, it goes back to the, what we were saying about networking, like you're not there to perform or impress.
I think that having the only sort of instruction be to share how it made you feel probably encourages people to go a little bit deeper, tap into that don't worry about your grammar or whatever and what a gift that is for a writer to know that. I think that's what we're all seeking when we write, is to move people dang, I gotta get in on this group.
Baily Hancock: Oh, it's so good. Julia, truly Jillian and Kim who run it. I'm, I don't know what my life would be like without them. It has been one of the best things I've ever done. And I tell people to do it all of the time, whether you consider yourself a writer or not. And I think that's probably something important about this too, is, I'm guessing you don't have to already be good at this thing. Maybe you used to be when you were younger or whatever, but I'm gathering that's not quite the point. Mastery of the thing is not the point. It's just doing the thing.
Jules Hotz (she/her): Think, especially for social prescriptions involving sports or art where a lot of people I've talked to have had an experience where they loved this thing when they were a little kid. And then as they got older, it became like competitive or it became Yeah it sucked the intrinsic joy out of it when it became that you had to be evaluated for your performance.
And again, I think social prescriptions, what's so magical about them among other things, is the way they bring us back to that really innocent, primitive childhood state when we were just like doing things 'cause they were fricking fun.
Virtual Connections and Final Thoughts
Baily Hancock: I imagine the answer is it depends, but this be achieved virtually as well?
Jules Hotz (she/her): Yes, it can be achieved virtually. I know there's a lot of debate and discussion right now about screen time and phones and social media. And I do think it's important when we have those discussions to acknowledge that Not everybody has the privilege of being able to leave their house so freely.
Not everybody has a car. Not everybody has financial means. And social prescriptions, while they do help with that, like part of being prescribed this is that, it's also generally covering the cost of transportation. It's covering the cost of bikes in the case of the bike club. But still, and especially in the U. S., we're not there yet. And so I do think it's important that we keep online virtual options available for people who can't or maybe just don't want to leave their house. I think it's totally possible for these like your writing group is a great example, right? That's virtual.
Baily Hancock: Yeah. Yeah.
Jules Hotz (she/her): Yeah. Yeah.
Baily Hancock: out as in person and then with COVID it moved virtual and now we don't even turn cameras on it's all audio so that we can fully feel
Jules Hotz (she/her): Oh,
Baily Hancock: you are. yeah,
Jules Hotz (she/her): wow.
Baily Hancock: with you. In person, definitely packs a punch, I think, which is true
Jules Hotz (she/her): Yeah.
Baily Hancock: virtual versus in person but The world is your freaking oyster when you go
Jules Hotz (she/her): Yeah.
Baily Hancock: is a community for every single interest. I promise you there are countless communities. When I worked in a community hosting platform company, we tried to find an accurate number of how many virtual communities there were, and it was impossible because they were growing by the second. So
Jules Hotz (she/her): Wow.
Baily Hancock: thing for everybody out there and maybe that's a good first step, right?
Maybe that's like step one. See if anybody else is out there offering what it is that you miss doing and then
Jules Hotz (she/her): Yeah.
Baily Hancock: neighborhood to
Jules Hotz (she/her): Absolutely. I love that. Yeah. I think for a lot of people, we talk a lot about the self fulfilling prophecy of loneliness and social anxiety that like, if you're dealing with social anxiety, this is a quote from someone in the book. Like it's the scariest and hardest thing ever when someone's telling you go socialize more.
So I think the trick is number one, like making it fun, and making it feel like you're not going for socializing, but you're going for that fun activity. Secondly, I think that it's about, offering all kinds of onboarding ramps for people who maybe haven't left their house in years. Virtual's a great option for that.
Baily Hancock: Dip a toe. Exactly. Get used to it.
Final question. What is yours?
Jules Hotz (she/her): What is my social prescription? Great question. It changes by the day. If you go actually on my website, socialprescribing. co you'll find that what we've done is, this is crowdsourced from people in the book, from myself, when I go through the different social prescriptions in part three, that there's one for every mood that you're in, or for every sort of mood negative state you're in.
So for example, this week I've been especially overwhelmed and stressed and feeling Oh my gosh, how am I going to do all the things I have to do in the hours there are in the day? And it turns out a lot of science supports the fact that when we feel that way, when we feel really overwhelmed and we can't pay attention to anything because we're so stressed about the next thing, taking a little bit of time.
To be in nature, to be still in nature is actually an investment in our attention and our focus for the rest of the day. So that is what I have been doing this week. And these have been solo social prescriptions, just going to my local park, bathing in the sun and just watching the trees and the birds for a little bit.
But this weekend, this Saturday, I'm going bird watching. Which is as you'll learn in chapter 12, for people who read the book, like my favorite or my unexpected favorite thing to do when I'm feeling really stressed and overwhelmed.
Conclusion and Farewell
Baily Hancock: I appreciate all of this and your time, I know this is going to be really impactful for our listeners and we'll be sure to link everything in the show notes so if you're like wait, to the back of the part about this could be paid for, because that's what I want to get to also is learning how you find that out. We'll make sure to put your website there so people can find out everything.
Jules Hotz (she/her): Thank you so much, Bailey. This has been so great. I really appreciate all you're doing and I'm going to keep seeking the overlap myself.
Baily Hancock: I love it. Thanks, everybody.
