Ep 3: The Life-Saving Power of Social Connections with Author David Robson
“It is unlikely that everyone you meet is going to become your new best friend. But even if your connection only lasts for that interaction, it can still be incredibly fulfilling.” - David Robson
About this Episode
In this episode of Seeking the Overlap, Baily Hancock explores the life-or-death importance of social connection with science writer and author David Robson. Drawing from his latest book, The Laws of Connection: The Scientific Secrets of Building a Strong Social Network, David reveals how the strength of our relationships doesn't just impact our happiness—it directly affects our physical health. From increased risk of heart disease to chronic inflammation, research shows that loneliness can trigger physiological responses that put our bodies in danger. Together, Baily and David delve into the evolutionary roots of why humans are wired for connection, why quality matters more than quantity in relationships, and how to overcome common barriers like shyness and the ‘Liking Gap.’ Packed with practical tips and eye-opening insights, this episode will leave you with a new understanding of why nurturing social bonds is essential for your mental and physical well-being—and how it can literally save your life.
topics covered
Discussing 'The Laws of Connection'
The Importance of Social Connections
Overcoming Barriers to Connection (like “The Liking Gap”)
“The Beautiful Mess Effect” and why vulnerability is key to connection
Resources mentioned
About the Guest
David Robson is a science writer and author based in the United Kingdom. A graduate of Cambridge University, he has worked as a feature editor at New Scientist and a senior journalist at the BBC, and his writing has appeared in the Guardian, the Atlantic, Men's Health, the Wall Street Journal, and many other publications. His previous book The Expectation Effect won the British Psychological Society Book Award. His latest book is The Laws of Connection: The Scientific Secrets of Building a Strong Social Network.
Timestamps
01:19 Introduction and Two Truths, No Lies Game
03:23 Discussing 'The Laws of Connection'
07:58 The Importance of Social Connections
11:58 Overcoming Barriers to Connection
22:44 The Beautiful Mess Effect
34:14 Rapid Fire Connection Questions
37:26 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Episode Transcript
Intro
Baily Hancock: Have you ever walked away from a conversation feeling unsure if the other person liked you as much as you liked them? Or maybe you found yourself wondering why it's so hard to break out of your shell and make meaningful connections, even when you know how important they are. If any of this sounds familiar, you are not alone and you're in the right place.
In today's episode, we're digging into the science behind these common struggles and giving you the tools to overcome them so you can finally feel confident in your ability to build deep, authentic relationships. My guest today is David Robson, a science writer and author based in the UK with a degree from Cambridge University.
He's worked as a feature editor at New Scientists and a senior journalist at the BBC, and his work has appeared in The Guardian, the Atlantic Men's Health, the Wall Street Journal, and many more. His latest book, The Laws of Connection, The Scientific Secrets of Building a Strong Social Network, is packed with insights on how we can all improve our relationships through science backed strategies.
So, if you've ever wondered why connecting with others feels more challenging than it should, or you wish you knew how to break through the barriers to true connection, you are about to get some answers.
Three Truths, No Lies
Baily Hancock: David, welcome to Seeking the Overlap.
David Robson: Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited.
Baily Hancock: I'm excited to chat with you, I'm a super connector, but I'm always looking for new tips and tricks, and Your book does a really great job of outlining the psychological barriers that come with connection, or the lack of connection.
But before we have you put on your science writer and connection expert hat, I would like to get to know you as a human a little bit better. So we're going to play a game that I call three truths, no lies based on the game, two truths and a lie, but I'm not really interested in lies, I would actually like to get to know you. So I have a bunch of random questions that I'm going to just pick and see what you have to say about it.
Favorite TV show or movie growing up?
David Robson: Will and Grace was my favorite TV program. Yeah.
Baily Hancock: That's a good one. Have you watched the reboot?
David Robson: I haven't. I felt like it was perfect the way they'd left it. So yeah, I'm not going to go there.
Baily Hancock: I think that's fair. Sometimes you need to leave your nostalgia neatly tucked into that box.
Okay, what is a food that reminds you of your 20s?
David Robson: I'll say melanzane alla parmigiana because I had that, when I was on holiday in Rome a couple of times and my partner cooked it for me a lot when we first moved in together. So it's got a lot of personal memories for me.
Baily Hancock: Oh, yours is so much classier than most people's, usually because I say you're 20s. It's like ramen noodles, or mine is pita pit from college, which yeah, just a mess of ingredients, but yours is very classy.
David Robson: I don't cook myself, so I can't take any credit for that.
Baily Hancock: You're very lucky.
Okay, one more question. There's a knock at your door and on the other side is someone you'd be so excited to see.
David Robson: I think it would be Natalia Ginzburg, who's my favorite Italian writer as well, and I just Love her style of writing so much. She's long dead, but yeah, it'd be someone like that someone who you'd never Have the chance of speaking to in reality,
Baily Hancock: oh, I love it. Thank you for playing.
Discussing 'The Laws of Connection'
Baily Hancock: Your book, The Laws of Connection, is so interesting because you're a science writer. It seems like you came at writing this book from a different angle than I would have written it, because I'm not a science writer, I'm much more into the social components of it all and the human piece of it.
What made you write this book?
David Robson: As a science writer, science is always the best lens for me to view life's problems through. I love art and culture, and that's why I do incorporate that and philosophy into my book as well. But I still want to have hard evidence, I'm quite analytical in that way. I want to know that what I'm writing isn't just platitudes, but that is actually been proven for a large number of people. Why I got into writing about social connection, it's just a subject that has always interested me because I am a bit of a kind of shy extrovert, so I absolutely have this huge need for connection and for being around people even if I'm by myself for just half a day, I do get a bit stir crazy I actually feel like all of these thoughts are going to burst out of my head if I don't talk to someone.
But, as a shy person as well there had been barriers to getting the connection that I craved and as a teenager growing up I had this speech impediment until I was 16 that was an obvious barrier. I had some close friends at school, but I really dreaded speaking to strangers, to new people.
And, even when I cured the, speech impediment, went to university, became a journalist, my confidence definitely grew, but I would also have periods where I felt very lonely. And when I came across a lot of this new research showing not just why social connection is so important for our health and being, but also, psychologically, why is it that we sometimes hold ourselves back and we don't get that connection that we crave?
I was personally just very fascinated by that and then once I learned more about it, I wanted to share that story with other people because actually my experiences aren't very unique at all actually. Lots of people feel a bit shyer than they would like to be and they find ways to compensate but they still really want to get more connection and so this book I was hoping will help people to do that.
Baily Hancock: Did it help you?
David Robson: It did, yeah, definitely. I always have put into practice whatever I learn and write about, and I certainly did with this. So many of the barriers that I describe, even just the awareness of them, understanding what they are, why we act the way we do, even that can help to promote behavioral change.
But then there are some evidence based strategies too that can just very easy psychological techniques that we can apply to overcome those barriers. I found it quite transformative actually. It would be a lie if I was to say there's never any kind of slight awkwardness in social interactions because I think it's the uncertainty that also makes social interactions exciting and thrilling and fulfilling. But it's absolutely helped me to appreciate that more, to strengthen my bonds and to have to be a little bit braver when I do approach strangers, when I, have to go to a party where I don't know anyone, that kind of situation.
Baily Hancock: It's funny you say that social awkwardness or the unknown of connecting with somebody new is kind of part of it, right?
I'm an extrovert for sure love meeting people I call myself a professional friend maker and yet There's still that hesitation that I feel. The way that I flip it around for myself is I think, what if my future old friend is in this room? What if tonight is the night I meet this really important person in my life?
And so that helps switch the mindset around from one of wanting it to be over, to one of curiosity and one where I'm like, are you my future old friend? Are you my future old friend? And so the process becomes a lot more playful.
You're almost uncovering, is it you? Is it you? Oh, it's not you. It's definitely not you.
David Robson: It is unlikely that everyone you meet is going to become like your new best friend. But even if your connection only lasts for that interaction, that can still be incredibly fulfilling.
The research shows that when we do overcome our fears of awkwardness and talk to strangers, that actually, even if it goes no further than that we get this boost to our wellbeing.
I'm really trying to tell people with this book is that it's a numbers game, too. So if you struggle, if you want to make more friends in general, you do have to go through that process of meeting more people and the chances are that some of those people are going to be a lasting relationship for you.
The Importance of Social Connections
Baily Hancock: Let's go back to the why of this all. There's so much information and so many articles and thought pieces coming out around the benefits of connection and having those strong social bonds. What are some of the key ones that you found in your research?
Why do we need people?
David Robson: I think most people understand we need them for our personal happiness, although certainly some would disagree, but we can't be totally independent it's very bad for your mental health but, It's also bad for your physical health, and I think that's what's really come out of the research recently, is that having a more supportive social circle, that feeling of mutual understanding not necessarily just the size of your social circle, but the quality of those relationships is really intimately tied with our physical health.
It seems to be linked to all kinds of diseases like diabetes, Alzheimer's how likely you are to have a heart attack or stroke, and we know that this is related to real physiological changes within the body itself. So when we feel socially excluded, you start producing more blood clotting factor, which is a risk factor for heart disease and inflammation, which is a risk factor for loads of diseases, because inflammation's part of the immune system's response to infection, which is, good in the short term, but if you have chronic inflammation, it damages tissues in the long term.
Now you might ask like, why did we evolve like this? And it's simply because in our evolutionary history other people were just fundamental to our safety. We needed them to protect us from predators, from, people in other groups, and so if we started to feel socially excluded, we might be at a greater risk of injury.
If we're thrown out of the group, then the body has to prepare itself for a potential wound. And so we have that higher inflammation and that blood clotting factor, because that's actually going to help to prevent us from getting an infection to help those wounds to heal. Again, it's like a great short term response, but over months or years, it's going to have a toll on your body, and that's why it's then implicated in all of those diseases.
Baily Hancock: It's literally life or death. I think it's so fascinating because you talk about this in your book too, how we've always, just looked at wellbeing and health from a body perspective, not a psychological mental perspective. And that's where so much of these social bonds can really play in.
Even in my own life, my hardest times in life or when I felt most isolated and when I felt like people didn't know what I was going through or I couldn't resonate with anybody or there wasn't that support and anytime in my life where I have turned things around, it has been through building and nurturing a community of people around me.
I'm so glad this is all coming to light because I also just think what a world we would live in if people felt more seen and more supported emotionally and mentally, and just as a human being, like everything would change.
David Robson: It would, and you know what, I feel like what we kind of lack, I think, we've always lacked, and probably we do more these days, is, like you say, it's like seeing people as human beings, and recognizing that, people are complicated.
It's not black or white, but there's like a lot of grey, and there'll be some bits of people.
Baily Hancock: People are complicated.
David Robson: Yeah, and there'll be some things that you like, and some things that are harder to deal with, or things you disagree with, that you have to, deal with. What you want to do is to try to understand the whole person.
Baily Hancock: Empathy and being able to recognize that even if you do empathize with somebody, you're not always going to have the whole picture because they might not even have the whole picture, right? How unaware are we of our own reasons for doing the things that we do?
Unless you've been doing the deep work and the inner reflection. So many people are walking around, not even really feeling connected to themselves, let alone other people.
David Robson: I totally agree, it's very difficult sometimes for us to introspect and to understand ourselves, and then that definitely makes it harder to form lasting relationships too.
Overcoming Barriers to Connection
Baily Hancock: What is keeping us from doing it? What are some of the barriers that we're up against when it comes to forming these social connections?
David Robson: I list like 13 laws, but the one that really really caught my attention and actually inspired me to look more deeply was something called the liking gap. And I'm really in love with this research, because it just chimed so well with my own experiences when I've spoken to other people, It's very common.
And this is that kind of feeling when you first met someone and you might have a great conversation, like you really felt like there was a rapport, you respect the other person, you found them funny, they said things that you could really identify with and relate to and then you go away from the conversation and you still have these doubts that they reciprocated those feelings.
So you assume that you liked the other person them more than they liked you. And what the research shows is actually that's so common that the other person is probably going away from the conversation feeling exactly the same. So neither of you have really recognized how liked you are, how appealing you are in that conversation.
And, my own personal experiences, I think my social anxiety often manifested in not in the kind of, approaching the interaction itself, it was those feelings afterwards. And it's almost like the more I liked someone and the more I wanted them to like me, like the more I'd have this kind of postdoc anxiety where I'd go over all of these things that I thought, like I'd said that were clumsy or awkward.
The research really suggests that actually we're just being way too pessimistic and self critical here, and that actually we just had a bit more faith but the other person liked us as much as we liked them. We just find it easier to then build on that rapport to suggest new meetings to give them a call or send them an email but instead, Just as it's about to sprout from this seed we let it wilt and die.
That's such a shame because we actually have so many more opportunities for connection that are easily within our reach. They're almost literally standing in front of us sometimes and we just don't build on that.
Baily Hancock: When I talk with people about building, nurturing and leveraging relationships, I find that one of the weaker parts for most people is the nurturing piece.
And that's probably a lot to do with this liking gap where, we can blame it on lack of time or, whatever but it's likely a lot of stuff going on in our own heads, exactly like that, right?
So what's the key? What's the trick? Do you just tell yourself that's not true and you just move forward anyway? Do the follow up even if you're second guessing the connection?
David Robson: Obviously, you still have to be mindful that not everyone is going to want to be your friend.
And that doesn't have to be personal. It could just be, they don't have enough time to have another friendship or, whether they might have other stuff going on in their life. You can be very sensitive to them and, take rejection very gracefully, but just be a bit braver.
But I think also more importantly, I think it's just to practice self compassion. And, there's a load of good research on self compassion, meditations you can do that seem to nurture self compassion, exercises like writing a letter to yourself when you're feeling anxious about something, as if you're writing to a friend, that kind of helps you to just treat yourself a bit more kindly, and we have to just practice that and try to keep it at the top of our heads, I think, whenever we're having these doubts just tell ourselves, go easy on yourself the truth is it probably isn't as bad as you thought.
And I think, if that just becomes habitual within your kind of thinking patterns, I think that will naturally just make us less likely to suffer from the liking gap.
Baily Hancock: I'm very glad it's something that's called out in your book because we often don't realize that our hangups or our concerns are actually a lot more common than we realize, like giving it a name obviously means that it's not unique to us, right?
If we're all feeling this, then it's a lot easier to move forward and say, okay, I'm feeling a little self conscious. I think I maybe said too much, or did I talk too much? You start to have those questions, right? You replay the conversation over and over in your mind.
Maybe this is a good excuse to be like, I'm just not going to do that, and I'm going to move forward with the assumption that they had just as good of a time as I did, and then let's see where it goes from there.
David Robson: Exactly. And also I think we just underestimate our ability to like, repair those tiny fractures.
Maybe the other person did think he spoke a lot in that conversation but it doesn't mean they won't want to meet you again. People are quite forgiving. And next time you do meet them, maybe you can just make more of an effort to ask them about their life.
A tiny little Error doesn't have to spell the end of a potential friendship. And that's what we should remember as well. We should just be more more forgiving of ourselves and more positive about our ability to, correct our errors.
Baily Hancock: Yeah, I think that's just good advice in general.
One of the parts that I super duper resonated with was when you talked about having a shared reality with somebody, how that increases the amount you feel like you like each other, obviously this podcast is called seeking the overlap and that's essentially what I'm talking about.
It's finding the overlap on the Venn diagram between you and the other person so that you can start from where you have commonalities. It's not just, Oh, we're both from the same place, we went to the same school. Sure, that helps you get to know the person a little bit better, but it's the way you think, the things you both find funny, the jokes you would both laugh at.
If you're just meeting somebody for the first time, short of playing 20 questions every time, how do you crack the surface level conversations? How do you get into that slightly deeper level of getting to know somebody in a casual conversation? Can you?
David Robson: I definitely think you can. I think it might be important to even emphasize just how small the cues can be that signal a shared reality. I found it a very funny experiment, actually the researcher got people to play What if Jennifer Aniston, where like a kitchen appliance or a household appliance, would she be like a screwdriver, a cocktail shaker, a saw, like really bizarre game. There's no right answer at all. And your answers really don't mean much about who you are, actually. But just knowing that another person gave the same answer as you, on this really trivial question, actually increased people's sense of shared reality, and made them feel less alone, and made them feel closer to the other person.
If you both say that Jennifer Aniston's like a cocktail shaker rather than a toothpick, it's just like saying that, somehow you have this tiny little bit of shared vision of the world and the same opinions. We don't have to be looking for really profound similarities, although obviously that helps, but what the research really shows is it's almost just the number of times you feel that you're on the same page, or that you're tuned to the same wavelength.
One of the problems is that because of our natural reserve, we maybe just don't express similarity enough. Someone might be thinking exactly the same thing as you, but we don't necessarily tell them that's the fact that we really agree with them, that we validate them, that we've been through the same experience, that we've felt the same emotions.
We might just let it go in the conversation and I think that is a wasted opportunity. Now I'm certainly not saying that we should fake this and like always just agree with everything someone says because I actually think, when there is a point of disagreement, that can itself be an interesting topic of conversation, because you might find that underneath your disagreement, you still, agree on the same values, for example.
It's more complex than just agreeing with everything people say, but actually just being a bit more open, verbalizing how we're feeling. I think that's really just one of the ways that we can do this.
Baily Hancock: That brings up an excellent point. I go back and forth with my feelings about saying, Oh, me too, or, Oh, I had the same thing happen to me. So there's two schools of thought on the internet about resonating with somebody. Let's say you say, yes, I, Oh, I went through this thing or Oh, I broke up with my partner and we had just moved to this new city, so I was all alone. Like I could say, Oh my God, that's happened to me too.
There's one school of thought that says, don't make this about you, they're sharing a story, you don't need to turn it into a story about you. And the other school of thought is it's showing them they're not alone . So I might have similar feelings and we've been through a similar shared experience. I don't really know how to do the right thing. And maybe it's just based on the person you're talking to, how that's received, whether it's okay I was sharing my thing and now you've shared your thing versus, oh my God, thank you for telling me that now I feel like I can talk to you more intimately about it.
I think it's a question of balance and kind of nuance and sensitivity. Like the last thing you wanna do is someone's just started to tell you like, about this bad breakup, and immediately you are like you'll never guess what happened to me. And you don't even listen to their story.
David Robson: You don't validate them, you don't show any curiosity and what they're feeling. You don't check your own assumptions. You've just you're just assuming that it's actually exactly the same as your own story without even bothering to ask them whether that's the case, like that is not going to be good for connection, but I think, provided that you do all those things that I've mentioned. Provided that you do actually let them be the center of attention as they're talking about this very recent and painful experience.
And then you're just interjecting with your own experience where it's like super relevant without kind of dominating the conversation. I think that to me would seem like the more sensible way of going about this. And actually, I think there is research showing this, that, self disclosure, even in these times of crises self disclosing while you're supporting someone else can be beneficial.
And like you say, it can enhance trust. You might have an interesting viewpoint, you've got experience and knowledge that could be relevant and beneficial. And it, it seems absurd not to share that. But just make sure it's still about the other person, not just all about you.
Baily Hancock: We're all in our own heads. Some people are much better than others at reading social cues and being able to pick up when somebody's feeling supported by that versus feeling one upped by it. Just pay attention to how it's being received and make sure that you're not doing the one upper thing.
You're literally saying, Oh my gosh, me too. Tell me more about your experience, right? I think there's probably a delicate balance there. Like you said, and again, it all comes back to the overlap, right? It's you don't want to be on one extreme or the other, do it in a way that's delicate and thoughtful and makes the other person feel seen versus steamrolled by your own experience.
David Robson: Yeah, exactly. And it's not a case of like competition, but right, the trauma Olympics, exactly, which I think, certainly sometimes it can seem like that. But yeah, it's like, just making sure that the other person is, Is the priority, that's just a really good ground rule.
The Beautiful Mess Effect
Baily Hancock: One big concept that I really want to dig into with you is the beautiful mess effect. Tell me what that is because I feel like it taps into this vulnerability It taps into this humanity that i'm so deeply interested in as it relates to connection. What is the beautiful mess effect?
David Robson: When we have something that we feel shame for, like a vulnerability that could be, screwing up at work or, having a bad breakup or a secret crush that you don't really want to tell anyone about any of these things that we think make us feel vulnerable.
We assume that other people see this as like a weakness, but they'll feel alienated away from us because we've shown that we're not this perfect human being. The research shows those fears are unfounded. People in general appreciate our honesty when we talk about things that we find and they see courage in that too.
It's brave to admit that you feel nervous about public speaking or that you've got body issues, or any of these things that they've looked at in the experiments. People really do seem to warm to you because you're being more authentic and because you're being brave.
Baily Hancock: It goes completely against everything that I think so many of us believe, especially people who are like me, recovering perfectionists, recovering overachievers, people that have gone about their lives with the assumption that you need to look like you know what you're talking about, you need to look like you have it all together, you need to look like you've never made a single mistake in your entire life because nobody will trust you otherwise. And in fact, It's the exact opposite. Who trusts a perfect person? Nobody, because I think on some level we know nobody's perfect. Nobody's perfect.
What else are you hiding if you're pretending to be this perfect human that has no flaws and has never felt shame about anything a day in their life?
David Robson: Yeah, totally. And trust is just so important for establishing that shared reality, because if you start doubting that someone's being honest with you, the shared reality is meaningless. You suspect then they're going to be that kind of person who's just saying what you want to hear, but there's no real depth to the connection that you have.
Perceptions of honesty are hugely important here. There was this study examining people's dating choices, where the questionnaire asked these questions about really bad behaviours, have you ever fantasised about torturing someone? Have you ever knowingly had sex with someone while you're carrying an STD? Not the kind of things you want to hear about
I'll add those questions to my three truths, no lies next time. We'll get right into it.
Yeah, that would definitely get some colorful responses. But if you could believe that someone was telling the truth, and they said they hadn't done any of these horrific things they are a better date, like a better prospect for you.
But I think what was interesting was that on the scale that people could answer, it was like, yes, one time, sometimes, often, prefer not to answer. And on average, people always rated the person who said prefer not to answer worse than the person who admitted anything, even worse than someone who said they do it frequently. because the idea that there's not just the possibility that they've done this thing, but then they were hiding it from you just made you think like they're like a pretty shady character who you don't want to connect to.
Baily Hancock: It's like the first chink in the armor, right? If you feel like if you're lying about this, what else aren't you telling the truth about? And now you're questioning the whole makeup of this person.
Obviously there's a wide range of vulnerability, do you have any advice for people in terms of knowing how much to share versus what is too much or what's unnecessary? Is there a fine balance between plucking out the more palatable vulnerabilities versus the ones that are a little bit uglier or scarier or rough around the edges? How does one know how much is too much or not enough?
David Robson: The conclusion I draw from this is just if there is something that's really important to you That you want people to know about then you should share it because actually they're going to understand better like where you're coming from I think like sharing your sexuality, for example like I'm gay, I felt, I was scared about coming out I came out, I felt a lot closer to people once I'd come out, because hiding that the fact that I was gay from the people around me meant they just didn't understand An important part of me and where I was coming from it meant I couldn't be honest in conversations about, dating or, that kind of chat that you have when you're like adolescence. I felt excluded and isolated before I came out.
On the other hand, say there's some stuff that just isn't relevant for the kind of conversations you're having, one of the studies looked at people like whether they had wet the bed or not, and like the consequences of other people knowing that fact. It was a positive piece of research because it showed people didn't care if someone had previously wet the bed. It was positive in the fact that we don't have to worry so much if stuff slips out or whatever.
But on the other hand no one actually needs to know that
Baily Hancock: That's not going to make you feel closer to somebody knowing that, right? Because
David Robson: especially, for most of these people, it was, like, something that happened when they were kids or whatever you don't need to share everything. It's all a question of is this important for the other person, for the other person to know to understand me, basically.
Baily Hancock: I think that's very true. I last year came out as bisexual and I am married to a man, I've never even dated another woman, and yet it felt like something I wanted to claim and share because not sharing it felt people don't fully know the entirety of me. And I think it, it may be made some people feel closer to me it may be drove some people further from me and that's great. I'd rather people at least know as much about me as I'm willing to share so they can decide am I their person? Am I one of their people?
The connections that I had prior to sharing that there's part of me that felt they don't actually know all of me, so maybe they don't actually really love me or they don't actually really resonate with me because they're missing some information. So for me, it was like, okay that's a big one. And now, and you can do with that what you want.
David Robson: Exactly. And I think that's what the research on secrets really tells us is that when they have one of these big secrets, they feel isolated, because like you said, you don't know if the other people will accept you for who you are, so you feel more distant from them, even the people who are closest to you. And I'm sorry to hear that some friendships did become more distant because you had shared that. And I think that's a risk, we have to acknowledge. Not everyone's gonna respond in the best way, but I think it's also powerful that the friendships that do remain, you can feel closer to them and they're the ones that you really can value. They're the ones that really matter. Yeah.
Baily Hancock: And I think sometimes when you share these things with people you are close to, it also gives them an opportunity to show you who they are.
David Robson: Yeah, totally. Or who they're not, right? And so it
Baily Hancock: was just, it was a two way process for me. It was like if you can't support this or you have weird responses to it, then good to know for me. I don't want people in my inner circle who don't accept all of me or who question why I do something or why I tell people something.
I'm tend to be a very transparent person just by nature. But, I think everybody has things that they keep close to the vest just because there's fear there of being rejected. At the end of the day, that's the antithesis to connection is feeling like if you try and connect and you're rejected is that worse than never having connected at all?
David Robson: Yeah, I totally agree. And actually that's something that I have only really recognized after having written the book actually is that Having learned about these principles of how to connect with people and how to strengthen your relationships and build new ones it's also given me the confidence sometimes to think that I don't actually care if I lose some of these relationships that just weren't fulfilling.
If the people just weren't treating me with the respect that I deserve and need. Because I think in the past, if you're worried about the amount of social connection you get, you can cling to people who actually aren't very good for you. And then it's like a huge relief just to realize fine, if you don't want me the way I am, I can get the love that I need somewhere else.
Baily Hancock: Exactly. You make space for people that are more aligned with who you are or who you're becoming. I think that's a big thing that people don't really realize till they, they start to hit adulthood is you're also going to keep becoming who you really are over time. And that person that you present to people around you is likely going to change.
I have friends from elementary school still, and I have friends that I have brought into my life in the last five, 10 years who know an entirely different version of me than those childhood friends. And I actually find it interesting and challenging and maybe a good way to see if those long term friendships will keep evolving alongside me because not all of them have, right?
Some of them have fallen away because I became somebody that was different than who I was when I was 14. But I'm thinking, thank God.
David Robson: Yeah, exactly. Everyone should be changing. I really think, we should aspire to be better people. I don't mean like more ambitious or richer, that kind of thing.
But like my shyness, for example, like I do think like some of my childhood friends really struggled to adjust to the fact that I became more confident as an adult and maybe they felt kind of some fragility or vulnerability there that they worried that like I wasn't depending on them so much but like they should have wanted the best for me because there wasn't anything good coming out of my shyness apart from unhappiness so yeah like people have to like they have to respect our growth and recognize that we can still maintain the connection we had even if we are slightly different versions of ourselves.
Baily Hancock: And I have no problem letting some friendships fade away. That's something I've had to come to. My 30s felt like a lesson in friendships evolving and fading away. and when it started to happen early in my thirties, it was really jarring and really upsetting because it's like what does that say about me?
If our friendship couldn't survive my own evolution, but now the way I look at it is, not every relationship is meant to be forever and that's okay. It's like rewatching your childhood favorite movie in a way. The relationship you had at that phase of your life let that be beautiful and let that remain solid in your memory.
And if somebody isn't evolving alongside you and doesn't like the more evolved version of you, that is okay. You can shake hands, give each other a hug and then part ways without tainting the entire beautiful friendship you had up until that point.
David Robson: Yeah, exactly. people kind of drift apart, you might also drift closer to them again in the future.
Provided that people are treating you, you would like the respect that you deserve, they, Provided you know that they do have your best interests at heart, then if your interests have started diverging, they can just occupy a different place within your social network.
It doesn't have to be this kind of great breakup or tragedy. And, we can just have faith that actually some of those friendships, they evolve, but they'll also You know, they may come back to us, we might come back to them. Over a whole lifetime it's very difficult to maintain all your friendships, so we should be maybe just a little bit less anxious about, that inevitable change that is occurring.
Baily Hancock: I agree.
Rapid Fire Connection Q&A
Baily Hancock: Let's do a quick rapid fire connection Q&A.
First question. You just walked into a social event, be it a networking mixer or a friend's house party where you do not know anyone besides the host.
What is your first move?
David Robson: I guess like my very first move would be to get a drink and some canapes. Wise man. But then, yeah, I guess I would look around the room for someone who is maybe looking a little bit isolated themselves. So someone who's, standing by themself or, just maybe in a couple because I see often I think with approaching strangers We can, it's better for us, but it can also be an act of altruism.
If someone is feeling a bit awkward and we can go over and give them the opportunity to connect, it's it's benefiting everyone.
Baily Hancock: Oh, that's an excellent reframe because then it also gets you out of your awkwardness because you're effectively going to help somebody even if they were fine on their own, it's a good mental place to be like, bless their heart. Let me go make them feel included.
David Robson: Exactly. And again, read the social cues, like maybe they don't want to chat. Maybe they're happy checking the phone or whatever, in which case I'd move on to someone else.
Baily Hancock: Okay, what's one thing you wish people knew about connection?
David Robson: I guess this is addressed to men more than women, but it's just please ask more questions. Oh, please say it again. Say it again louder. Just ask more questions and Ask good questions I'm not talking about, it's a phenomenon called boomer asking, where you're like tell me about your job, anyway, I do this, blah, blah, blah, and it's just like straight back on the person. Just ask genuine, curious questions. It's like the first piece of advice you get when you're learning about social skills is ask questions and be interested in other people.
But I still think not enough people are doing this. So yeah, just please do it. Yeah.
Baily Hancock: It doesn't even have to be hard. Okay, look, even if you were zoned out, which is not okay, but it happens in networking events, it happens in social parties. Maybe you're not fully listening to what they're saying, but you want to continue the conversation, you can just say really, that's super interesting, tell me more about that or you don't even have to reference something they just said, just ask a follow up question that makes people feel so good.
David Robson: The follow up questions are so important. And I actually, I feel this very strongly as well. Sometimes someone tells you something, and, you might not fully get, like, why they think it's interesting it might seem boring to you, but that should be your prompt, then, to ask another follow up question to work out why it's important to them, and I don't think saying you're not interested, to me, isn't a good enough excuse you should you should try to be interested, if you can be.
Baily Hancock: Yes. Be a curious, interested person, even if you're not interested in the subject. That's gold. When people tell you something they care about, that is gold waiting for you to mine it. They've just shown a little bit of their heart to you and to not have that followed up on or excavated can feel worse than never having that conversation to begin with.
David Robson: Yeah, no, it totally can. And what I find in conversation is that often when you dig a bit deeper, what seemed quite boring can actually become quite interesting, you just have to ask the right questions to get to that nugget.
Baily Hancock: Exactly.
Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Baily Hancock: David, thank you so much for all of this great wisdom and these amazing tips and excellent advice about connection. Thank you for writing this book, we'll link it in the show notes. Please go read it, it's a really good guide for people that are just feeling like they don't quite know how to connect.
So thank you, David.
David Robson: Thanks so much. Yeah, it's been a great conversation. I've really enjoyed it.
